Several decades ago—back when fax machines felt cutting-edge—Teresa and I owned a music production company creating radio and television content. We were confident in our product. But knowing you have something valuable and knowing how to talk about it in a way people can actually receive are two very different things.
So we went looking for a sales training program—something practical, proven, and effective.
That search led us to High Probability Selling by Jacques Werth.
What I didn’t realize at the time was that this book—and the method behind it—wasn’t really about selling at all. It was about being genuinely curious. About keeping the focus on the other person. About resisting the subtle pull to make every conversation about yourself.
In other words, I thought I was investing in sales.
What I actually stumbled into was a lesson in listening.
The Conversation Most of Us Have—Without Realizing It
One of Werth’s most memorable teachings is deceptively simple. He points out how often someone will offer something personal—
“I’ve been feeling really overwhelmed at work lately.”
And without even noticing, we respond:
“Oh yeah, I totally get that. When I was in my last job…”
Or someone shares,
“My dad’s been sick this year.”
And almost reflexively, we say,
“Yeah, my mom went through something similar…”
In both moments, the intention is kind. But the effect is subtle and telling.
The spotlight—almost imperceptibly—swings back to us.
We don’t mean harm by it. We’re not necessarily trying to dominate the conversation. But in that moment, something quietly relational is lost. The other person offered a door into their inner world, and instead of walking through it with curiosity, we redirected the conversation back to ourselves.
A genuinely skilled conversationalist does the opposite. They resist the impulse to self-reference. They stay with the other person’s experience. They ask another question. They go deeper.
Not because it’s polite.
Not because it’s strategic.
But because they are actually interested.
Curiosity Is a Relational Skill—Not a Personality Trait
Over the years at LifeApp, I’ve sat with many people who are struggling in their relationships. They’re lonely. They feel unseen. They long for a deeper connection.
And sometimes I’ll ask a simple, confronting question:
“On a scale of 1 to 10, how interested are you in other people?”
I’ve had people answer honestly: “Probably a two.”
What they’re naming isn’t cruelty—it’s self-absorption. A me-centric posture toward life, where attention is habitually pulled inward: How am I doing? How do I sound? When do I get to talk?
The paradox is painful.
We long to be known…
…but we haven’t learned how to know others.
Curiosity is not an inborn trait reserved for extroverts or empaths. It is a trainable relational discipline—and one of the most love-centric skills a human being can develop.
The Science of Listening and Why We’re So Bad at It
Research strongly supports what Werth intuitively understood decades ago. Listening is not passive. It is cognitively demanding, emotionally regulating, and counter-cultural.
Listening expert and researcher Oscar Trimboli has spent years studying how humans listen—and why we so often don’t. His work shows that most of us listen at a surface level, primarily waiting for our turn to speak. We listen to reply, not to understand.
Neurologically, this makes sense. Talking about ourselves activates the brain’s reward system. Dopamine flows. We feel affirmed. Being listened to literally feels good.
Listening well, on the other hand, requires us to inhibit our own impulses, regulate our internal commentary, and sustain attention on someone else’s inner world. It’s effortful. And in a culture trained by social media, speed, and self-expression, it’s increasingly rare.
Yet Trimboli’s research also shows something hopeful: when people feel deeply listened to, trust increases, stress decreases, and relational bonding accelerates. Deep listening is not just kind—it’s biologically bonding.
The Love-Centric Shift: From Me to You
Here’s a simple practice Werth taught that still shapes how I think about conversation:
“How long can I keep the conversation about you without making it about me?”
It isn’t a tactic. It’s an awareness practice—one that reveals how quickly we’re tempted to reclaim center stage.
A love-centric conversationalist willingly lets go of the need to occupy the center.
They choose presence over performance.
Curiosity over commentary.
Listening over impressing.
This is not self-erasure. It’s self-offering.
And it is one of the clearest expressions of love available to us in everyday life.
The Love-Centric Shift: From Me to You
When we don’t listen well, we miss what matters most. Not the story—but the person telling it. Not the words—but the heart behind them.
Living love well isn’t about being interesting. It’s about being interested.
About choosing presence over performance and attention over advice.
It’s about being with another human being in a way that says:
“I’m here. I’m not rushing. You matter.”
In a me-centric world, curiosity is an act of resistance.
In a lonely world, listening is an act of love.
And perhaps the most encouraging truth of all: This is a skill we can learn, practice, and embody—one conversation at a time.
Until next week,
Jonathan Penner | Co-Founder & Executive Director of LifeApp
Resources To Dig Deeper
Book
Deep Listening: Impact Beyond Words
Most of us spend over half our day listening, yet almost none of us have been trained to do it well. Trimboli challenges the assumption that communication breaks down because we don’t speak clearly enough, arguing instead that conflict, confusion, and relational drift are often failures of listening. His work invites us to listen beyond words—to notice context, emotion, and what’s left unsaid—and to quiet our inner commentary long enough to truly be with another. It’s a practical, research-grounded guide to shifting from me-centric listening to the kind of presence that creates clarity, trust, and real connection.
-Oscar Trimboli
Podcast
How Great Leaders Listen
In this interview, Oscar Trimboli names the “spotlight drift” we are talking about—but from the inside out. He argues that real listening doesn’t begin by staring harder at the speaker; it begins by noticing what’s happening in you: the open browser tabs in your mind, the urge to fix, the reflex to interrupt, the impulse to turn their story into your own. He explains why this matters with a striking idea: people speak at about 125–150 words per minute, but think at roughly 900—meaning the first thing someone says may be only a small fraction of what they actually mean. The invitation, then, is love-centric conversation: create space, use silence, ask simple prompts like “tell me more” or “and what else,” and listen not just for words—but for what hasn’t been said yet. In other words: resist reclaiming center stage, and stay with the person in front of you long enough for the real story to emerge.
-Oscar Trimboli (41:40)